The more I think about rape, the more I feel that it exists in a wider spectrum than is currently acknowledged. I recently got the news that a girl I know was raped by the guy she was seeing at the time. There were drugs involved. She wasn’t passed out and she didn’t say no, but afterwards she was really upset because she thought she was too intoxicated to consent. I think if she feels raped she deserves the support that would be given to any other rape survivor, but is the guy who did this a rapist? Do you think it’s possible for a man to rape a woman unintentionally? I know that right now the law says it technically counts as rape if the person you had sex with was intoxicated, but most of the drunken sex I hear about (or participate in) results in no more trauma than the mutual awkwardness that sets in the morning after. It seems like between sobriety and blacked out, there’s a lot of grey area that isn’t addressed very often. Maybe there are situations where rape has occurred, but also where a prison sentence for the man wouldn’t be appropriate.
So far I haven’t given the guy in this story much of a face, because for the purposes of this post I’m really using him as a composite to make a point about other men in similar situations. But I can’t allow myself to end the entry without bringing up one terrible thing that he absolutely DID do. I don’t know if he did it because he actually DID intend to rape this girl, or if he did it out of fear, or if it was a knee-jerk reaction or whatever, but it’s completely unacceptable. This girl worked up the courage to confront him about what happened and instead of saying “I’m sorry, I didn’t think you felt raped, is there anything I can do?” he got defensive and basically said “no I didn’t, you’re a liar. fuck off.” I’m not just bringing this up because it makes me want to do all kinds of harm to this guy. I’m bringing it up because I think it points to a possible (maybe only partial) solution in those rape cases where the line between able to contest and unable to consent was blurry. So the question is this: if this guy had been more compassionate, do you think it would have helped the girl cope with what happened? And put more broadly, when it comes to the kind of situation I’ve just talked about (because i think there are some rape scenarios that simply DO NOT offer this possibility), do you think it’s possible for the “rapist” to act as a base of support for the rape survivor?
this is SUCH a good question lucie!
i think that it’s gotta be possible to be a rapist without meaning to be. if the guy was drunk, that’s another reason to doubt that he meant harm, cuz drunk people aren’t as aware of the implications of what they’re doing.
that being said, it’s hard to decide whether he is technically a rapist. however, he seems to have a rapist mentality, in being really mean to the girl after she confronted him, if he was really mean that is.
THAT being said, would you be able to tell us exactly what the girl said to the guy? and exactly what he said back? because im worried that some editing, intentional or not, is going on in this description. because there is a big difference between the girl saying, “i was really uncomfortable with the sex, and you should have known better than to have sex with me while i was in no position to consent” with the guy responding, “no i didnt, you’re a liar. fuck off.” and the girl saying, “you fucking rapist, i hate you, why did you rape me?” with the guy responding, “i dont know what you’re talking about.”
i feel annoyed when people make sexual decisions when intoxicated. because people should know better than to do that, esp cuz people don’t necessarily make the right sexual decisions even when sober. but my heart goes out to this girl. she probably feels pressure to have sex, period, drunk or sober, or even more when she’s drunk. but maybe the guy felt pressure to take advantage of her too. ofc, in this case, he was in the wrong, and should have resisted the pressure to have sex. but i cant think of him as evil, or think of men as evil for doing stuff like this, no more evil than human nature itself. most human beings just seem to abuse whatever power they have, no matter how big or small their power is, or who they’re exercising it/abusing it over.
also, is it possible that he didnt know that she’d been drinking? either because he just assumed she was sober, or was too drunk to remember that she was drunk? do you think he maybe doesn’t even remember having sex at all? those details would change my evaluation of whether he should be called a rapist or not.
oh and what i said applies to drugs too, not just alcohol. obvious but i wanted to clarify anyway.
“rapist mentality”
This word is jumping out at me, ork. Can you explain what you mean by this? What I’m guessing is like this need for power over women. Which makes me think, maybe our whole society has a “rapist mentality” in some way or another. I think this dude needs to take responsibility for the fact that he raped someone. But this idea that some people have rapists mentalities and others don’t is weird to me. Maybe that was the point of this whole thing. Unfortunately I think sexual violence is just all too common for it to be limited to people who fall into the category of “rapists,” the sort of people you see on Law and Order SVU. I think the truth is that humans rape because our society permits it, some might argue encourages it.
Violence against women is one of the most confusing things to me. I honestly can’t understand how it’s so pervasive and why more people aren’t up in arms about it. I hope your friend has some support and knows people she can call if she wants to.
@ork: honestly, I don’t know exactly how the conversation went down. I’m sorry I don’t because I think you’re right that it would make a difference. The only thing is, I’m pretty sure she didn’t say “I’m sending your ass to jail!” so I think regardless, it was the guy’s responsibility to show more compassion.
@munzi: I think what ork means by “rapist mentality” is the intention to rape a woman. I think you’re right that all men at some point feel the need to dominate women in one way or another, but I think not all men want or intend to rape women. If fact I’d say most men don’t want to rape women. So that way it’s true that some men have rapist mentalities and some don’t.
“I think this dude needs to take responsibility for the fact that he raped someone.”
I agree. I guess the question I’m asking is how should he take responsibility for it. like should he take responsibility for it in the same way an SVU rapist should take responsibility for it (ex: going to jail) or are there other, less extreme ways that he should take responsibility for it (ex: apologizing the girl, confirming her feelings, and like, offering his support, assuming she wants his support which she may not, but I think I would want it).
I think that our country does have something of a rapist mentality, not just in how we treat women, but also how we treat natural resources, politics, economics, etc. etc. etc. It is the dark reality of individual, me-firstism, the brutal exploitation of whatever can be exploited, with other people first on the list. I think that within this mentality there are a whole range of different ways of violating an individual, their rights, their bodies, etc. But I think ultimately what needs to happen is a cultural shift on a huge scale, and I think that a rapist taking responsibility, apologizing, recognizing, etc. what he’s done, especially in cases involving substances, is a really good first step towards changing attitudes.
i agree with how lucie explained my conceptualization of rape mentality.
and the question of how he should take responsibility is a good one. i have no idea what would be fair. i would like the taking of responsibility to be as un-punitive as possible. i know men dominate society and make rules for other men, but i think it’s hard for a man in this society to not feel wimpy if he doesn’t take advantage of a situation to get sex out of it. again, i reiterate that your friend has it way worse in this situation. but it’s hard to concede that you have abused your power, because then you just feel like a pawn in society’s absurd game, you feel like you have no agency, like you’ve been brainwashed into doing something terrible, something you should have been strong enough to resist. possibly this dude who may or may not be a rapist is worried about such things, the fear of which could result in his inconsiderate and awful response.
In the interest of both parties involved, I would agree with Munzi–I don’t know if trying to label certain people as having a “rapist mentality” helps anyone. I like what you said, Munzi, about how it’s a bad idea to view “rapists” as occurring in a set category of people. I agree that the role our society plays in encouraging this behavior is a much larger issue.
Are any more details available about the situation? Because in a rape “grey area” case like this its the details that especially matter. With that said I’m not going to judge whether or not it was rape based on the provided information. This case shows how as a society we need to promote a deeper understanding of issues of consent and responsibility.
Secondly I would like to relate a second case, somewhat similar to the above one, which I know the details of. A friend of mine, female, was in a long term relationship with a male. They had slept with each other numerous times, both sober and inebriated.
On one occasion they both had consumed alcohol, but my friend maintains she was much more drunk than him. They had sex, which she did not “say no” to.
However, the next day she felt violated, as she felt she was too far gone to consent to taking part. In response to this, her boyfriend apologized profusely, claiming he was unaware how drunk she was(remember he was inebriated as well), and committed to never repeat that scenario. Their relationship continued.
Both my friend and I feel that it wasn’t rape, given all the factors, but that it was an act in that rape/not rape grey area.
I did not discuss this with her, but I feel his compassionate and apologetic attitude may have been a factor in her judgment of the rightness/wrongness of his actions.
What are other peoples feelings in regards to this example?
Are any more details available on the case mentioned in the blog?
And one quick opinion, the males reaction in the story given in this blog may be a sign of him panicking, as the epithet of “rapist” is one of the worst to be labeled with. He may not have a “rapist mentality”, he may have been shocked that what he thought was a night of intoxicated, “consensual” sex has come back to bite him in this unfortunate way. (the fact that he would succumb to temptation and exploit this girls intoxication indicates to me either a sociopath or an idiot.)
“And one quick opinion, the males reaction in the story given in this blog may be a sign of him panicking, as the epithet of “rapist” is one of the worst to be labeled with.”
I think you’re right. Sorry I don’t have any more details to give about this scenario because more details usually mean more clarity. But I do think it’s always the man’s responsibility to give the girl his attention when she’s saying she feels raped. As bad as he must of felt, he should realize that the girl probably feels worse. And I do know that she didn’t press charges (oh there you go, I do have another detail!) so it’s not like his well being was on the line.
Also, I agree with the analysis of the example you provided.
Actually:
I think I disagree with your analysis in one small (yet super large) way. I would say that what happened to your friend WAS rape because she probably wasn’t hallucinating her feelings of violation. But I would agree with you that her boyfriend isn’t a rapist and wasn’t trying to violate her. Also, I think he did exactly the right thing by apologizing and making a real effort to prevent anything like this from happening in the future.
I think the main problem you all fail to recognise here is how alcohol causes testosterone patterns to become Visa versa in men and women alike. In other words when women drink they get turned on as testosterone levels rise and inhibitions lessen and when men drink we get brewers droop unless we get the attention we require to turn us on. also it is very easy to forget who put who’s hand down whos undergarments first whilst intoxicated but in general when the hormonal influence of the alcohol is removed (the morning after) it tends to be the case that our roles in such a future scenario alter within our minds therefore men become more dominant again due to their testosterone levels normalising and feel guilty as they have forgotten either / part or all of the events this should lead to an apology but if they do remember some of it and are still intoxicated they may not as they still feel less of a man due to the intoxication hence this being a grey area or “catch 22 ” as they still feel guilty for not being themselves. all in all hormones are horrible things that leave everyone feeling violated after such an event plus from a womens perspective when testosterone depletes the woman feels like a “slag” amongst her peir group for succombing to her sexual urges
Josh I have no fucking idea what you were just trying to say. I’m not saying this to put down your opinion, I just really don’t know what you’re getting at. Could you try to make your point in simpler terms?
who is josh?
…… Whos is the rapist?